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Snake Diggity

LMAO. Too true. That's one of the negative impacts of the internet imo; too many people have too much access to too much (mis)information. Now, instead of being ignorant and silent, people are forcefed nonsense. And not only that, they can all too easily turn around and forcefeed their own version of the nonsense to everyone they know with a few keystrokes.

Politics is the same as religion in my book. I ain't buyin, so don't try to sell me.

desertboy

While I agree that there is much misinformation accumulating out there, I think that one cannot disregard some of the public's general distrust of the government. That is, just because a bill says it plans on one thing, doesn't necessarily mean that it won't later act as a proverbial "foot in the door." The establishment of an income tax is a classic example. Yes, initially it was designed for "just the rich," but of course later incorporated many more of us, and to increasingly greater degrees. I'm not suggesting that I necessarily believe that this will happen with any such proposed health care bill, but I can see some cynics worried over this and assuming for the worst vs. merely reading everything at face value.

Ojo Rojo

That's your Libertarian sensibility talking. The income tax is a good thing. How else would we pay for roads, bridges, the military, upkeep of national parks, enforcement of game laws, etc., etc., etc. Anti-government people always seem to forget that the government does a lot of good things and that the excesses of government are really a very small percentage of the overall picture. When something gets that large there is inevitably some excess and abuse as a simple matter of statistics. Take any individual American household - do they buy 10% more shit than they need? 20%? More? I think what we're seeing is that there are examples out there where the free market doesn't work. That really galls those people who believe that American=Capitalist to the point where they are ignoring the truth. Health care might be one of these. The Libertarian plan would be great except that vast numbers of the poor would be dying in the streets. I'm okay with that if you're okay with that.

desertboy

You misunderstood my devil's advocate; I was not putting myself in any particular category, only allowing for some of those you chastise to have a point. Sure, some are crazy, but many are just scared, and it isn't fair to call all the fear ignorance. My point was never that income tax is a bad thing (although personally, I think the government's need for income could be satisfied with a better system. How else to pay for roads? By using other types of taxes. There are many options.) but that the original sellers of the idea did not plan for what it became. And so could go a major overhaul to the healthcare system.

Personally, I am not in favor of the status quo or the current proposal(s). I want a single payer system.

Ojo Rojo

No, I understood. If the people I'm criticizing have a point it is completely misinformed, uninformed and reactionary. And that point is being expressed openly, which is influencing other misninformed, uninformed reactionaries. Pretty soon, even a good plan gets deep sixed because of ignorant public outcry against it. I'm not criticizing those who have studied the issue and have legitimate reasons for being against it.

desertboy

The original comment seemed to suggest that most if not all the opposition for the currently proposed reform is absurd/misguided/ignorant/what have you. If I misunderstood that, my bad. While it does perhaps seem that way, from watching the news, reading silly forwarded emails or FB, I caution that that may not represent the majority of dissent. Also, recent polls have indicated that since all the town hall nonsense, general opinions haven't altered much.

How about an Ojo Rojo discussion about the healthcare reform issues?

desertboy

Oy vey. I take it all back. These people are effin' crazy.

Ojo Rojo

I can't tell who's who anymore, but apparently many of the crazies lobbing Hitler comparisons are LaRouche supporters. But I've seen and heard known conservatives making the same. Maybe they bandwagoned on LaRouche's shit. Bad idea.

My criticism isn't of people who are informed dissenters. There's plenty about the health care reform bill to legitimately take issue with. It would be ignorant of me to lump all of the dissenters together and just say that they are all ignorant and uninformed. The ones getting most of the press coverage, those most visible, appear to be of the ignorant and uninformed variety.

Anyway, I'm not taking a position on the health care debate. I'm just saying that people need to get informed instead of just spouting ignorant opinions. All of the angry rhetoric is causing greater divides among people that just don't need to be.

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